Good afternoon. Michael Malice here. Let that be your welcome for the next hour. Guys, you have been asking for this collab for years. And I didn't even think that it would ever happen, so I never thought to ask. But I slid into the DMs and we have with us the man, the legend, the mystery himself, Bronze Age pervert, Bap is here from his secret undisclosed location. Thank you so much for doing the show. Mike, thank you. It's an honor to be on your program. It's an honor to be here. It's great. Hello. So one of the things I, for people who don't know who you are, you are the author of Bronze Age Mindset. Your Twitter handle is Bronze Age Mantis. You have, you're basically, and I'm saying this tongue very in cheek, are almost like a Jordan Peterson from another

reality, like from a Rick and Morty dimension, because you teach young men how to thrive, to push themselves to their limits, how to become better men, but you do it in a very different tack than he does. So what I'd like to start with by asking you is, can you explain to people what the BAP philosophy is, the Bronze Age mindset in a nutshell? Yes, very difficult to say this, but I imagine I am here just to spread the political views of the ancient Hittite Empire or the ancient Mitanni Empire. So if you want me to put in a short formula, it is actually very difficult because it's not meant to be a formula. And you mentioned Jordan Peterson. I know Jordan Peterson has done much good and for many, especially, as you said, young people, he's been important

in helping them sort out their lives. That's not really what I did in my book. It's a book of humor, and it's meant to maybe expose the fact that people live today in a kind of prison. And when I wrote it, I wrote it, yes, I didn't intend it to a wide audience. I thought it would spread among a few of my friends, maybe 500 people. If you know the blogger, Roush, you know him. He said, well, it will spread to 500. Maybe 1,000 copies will sell over the lifetime of this book. And I think it sold that in the first few hours. And ever since then, it's spread in many different quarters of the world. I have a big international audience. And I think that's precisely because there is no such. I didn't try to put a formula or a philosophy or even life advice.

The book is not about self-help or any of these things. It's simply my view of life today and in history. You don't need any special background to read it. It's been called a Nietzschean book or this or that. Whatever my ultimate influences may be, I do not wear them on the sleeve in the book. It's really a book about my own experiences. It's full of personal anecdotes. And it's a book of, let's say, to show in humor manner that we live in a kind of straitjacket, I call it iron prison, an iron prison. And I think that resonates with many different types of audience. You mentioned young men and so on, but it's not just that. I don't like to be pigeonholed. I was very happy to find out that it spread to non-political quarters of world. There are gamers and people who love travel,

who are non-political, who have liked my book. I'm happy. I'm sorry to be vague. I'm happy to discuss particular issues and such. But to answer question like, what is general philosophy of book, is very difficult because there is none. It's just, I want to destroy that pretense to an ideology or what is a philosophy, you know. Well, that's interesting that you said that because I wanted to show you something really cool. So you are often characterized, and we could talk about this in a second, as being a Nietzschean. One of my big influences was Max Stirner. And for people who aren't familiar with his works, he was regarded as almost a hipster Nietzschean. So I have with me, I want to show everyone, I have with me a first printing of Max Stirner's 1845 book,

I think it was actually published in 1844, called Der Einzagutwein seinigentum. And the book came out in Leipzig, and the censors looked at it, and they said, this is too crazy, we don't have to censor it. And it became enormously influential in the years after his death. He was actually kind of a cuck, because he dedicated his book to his sweetheart, Marie Donhardt. And later she was like, oh, he was such a loser, and completely like shat on his memory. Let's talk a bit about, are you familiar with Stern? Are you a Sterner fan? I am not so familiar with him. I'm not going to pretend I ever seriously read him. I know roughly what he's about and I know you get called an anarchist and that he is in maybe that general camp. I like the idea of him but I don't know him well, no.

Well, the reason I brought him up with what you just said is one of the big themes of his book, and this is his only book, was him attacking the concept of spooks, meaning these concepts of these ideological constructs that we become prisons of. In his view, it's things like society or religion or morality, and basically you get caught up in these ideas, in his view, these ideas aren't real, and we become prisoners. People tend to be, like you were saying earlier, prisons of your church or prisons of your government or prisons of your family, and his whole point is that he is unique, der Einziger, he's the one, and there's no one else like him, or any of us, and that is basically the starting point for his morality. So he does have some similarities with Nietzsche in that regard.

Yes, you can take Nietzsche in that direction, sure. If you want, we can talk this. I admire this man Louis Ferdinand Céline, You know this French author from, he wrote Journey to the End of the Night after World War I. It was the hipster avant-garde book of its day. And then I recommend for your audience also his other book Death on Credit. He was a man of today would be classified hard right or the far right. But I think there's some misunderstanding in these words, because at the time it was, we can talk this later on show if you want, but at the time it was the avant-garde of art world was, let's say, of that political persuasion. But regardless, he has this line that everything must be dragged through the mud today,

everything must be tarnished to see what comes out on the other end survive. I agree with what you said about Stirner as a strategy, but I would make it less abstract. I'd say today, whatever may have been the case in the past regarding religions and so forth or political systems, ideologies, today they are, I think, without the question parodies of what they used to be. They've been put through what I've called a big snood filter. Okay, they've been put through a filter and in the modern world and today it's all... Wait, wait, let me interrupt you. Can I interrupt you? Yes. People who don't know what BixNude is, Google it. I'm not going to explain it. But I had in my book, The New Right, I describe what it is and I was shocked

that the publisher let me have that explanation in there and we'll just leave it at that. Go ahead, sir. Well it's a funny image, but everything has been put today through that filter where it appears to me as puffed up pretense. And so, I don't even want to make general case like you said Sterner does about ideologies or religions or group identities as such, whatever they may have been in the past, and I do suspect you are right that they were bogus also in the past, but today without a doubt they are forms of vanity, they need to all be dragged through the mud, and if something comes out on the other side of mockery, then maybe it's worth preserving. But today they're really used as, imagine a man in a cage and you put bells and whistles and Christmas lights on the bars of the cage,

and that's how I see all of these pretenses today. We live fundamentally in a place, a possibility for action, for thought highly restricted. I can explain to you if you want why I've had these experiences but they resonate with many men especially yes because yeah. Guys life can be stressful it can be overwhelming and it's not just your mind that suffers when you're feeling tense and anxious because stress can make a mess of your digestion and immune system too but here's the thing you can handle it with the help of Just Thrive Probiotic and their other product Just Calm. So say goodbye to frazzled nerves and say hello to a steady, chill, more relaxed you. JustCalm's exclusive mood lifting blend is clinically proven to help you relax and breathe

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get back to the show. I have a friend who, I have many friends who are big fans of yours, and one concept that you, I think, pioneered quite somewhat recently, and please correct me, is this idea of the longhouse, right? That's from you. And when I heard it explained to me, and this kind of mantra of, I will not live in the longhouse, it's amazing how many times like a simple concept can explain it's like putting on like it's like taking the red pill right it's like a simple red pill but once you take that one red pill many things grow clear to your understanding can you explain to people how you came up with this concept the longhouse and what it means yes I'm happy to and I think I should write something longer because I am astounded

to see it used all over the internet yeah everyone now and mostly it's used by people. It's not used in the way I intended. So I'll quickly explain what it means. In large part, it's used now as synonymous with feminism or with rule by women or such things. And that's not really what it means. That's a small part of it. If people want to see the sources of what I meant, meant. They should go and read Nietzsche Genealogy of Morals, essay one, section five. It's just one paragraph, as much as Nietzsche is, one longish paragraph. And he explains the condition of Europe before, may I say this word on your show, the Indo-Europeans, let's say Cain, he uses the word the Aryans, and he explains that modern feminism and socialism

is a return physiologically in some way to the pre-Aryan commune of old, let's say old Europe, you could say that, let's say before 15 or 1600 BC. And what this means, I do not cite such things in my book, I talk again from my own earthy experiences and direct apprehension of the world, but if people are interested, they should read that passage from Nietzsche and there are certain other, let's say, archaeological findings of the fact that before this time in Europe, people used to live in long houses, in communal housing, as they did in continued even after in in much of the rest of the world. When the Spanish arrived in the Americas, the Aztecs lived in quote-unquote apartments in cities, but they were really communal living. Everyone lived on top of each other and so forth.

And throughout the world, many primitive villages are like this. Well, it's archaeological change you see in Europe, again around 1500-1600 BC or so on, where people started to live in maybe individual family households or even just individual houses. And this was a big change. And to me, what I explained, longhouse, I don't discuss any of this background in the book, but I do try to explain how actually the modern world with its kind of mediocre collectivism is not really modern. it's a return to a pre-modern state. A degeneracy. Yes, a kind of degeneracy to what I call default humanity, default civilization, which is really the slum. Everywhere in the world you go, you find these sprawling favelas, slums, call it whatever you want. It's really people

living on top of each other, but people forget that most cities historically have been this too, in the Orient especially, and they are not what people imagine by the word city when they think of, let's say, Florence in 1500. It's really a giant, it's a giant slum, you know, and women end up having enormous... Wait, let me interject quickly. So if anyone doubts what Bep is saying, read like pretty much any historical figure and when they talk about the cities, they're not all princesses clutching their pearls. They're all talking about how filthy it is, how everyone's on top of each other, the degenerate morals, and it's just like the founding fathers when they were in Philadelphia were complaining about all the brothels and just how gross it was.

This is not just all puritanical prissiness, but Baptist speaking has a lot of basis in historical reality? Yes, and I think that you go to, let's say, West Africa, although I shouldn't just pick on that place, but let's say, read what George Frazier and other early anthropologists and travelers had to say about West Africa, including people who were concerned very much with practical day-to-day affairs. If you read colonial British, just guides for colonial administration in West Africa. They explain how West African society works, which is village-based, people live on top of each other, and the actual rulers are not the rulers. The real ruling gets done through magical secret societies, witchcraft and so on, in which women are incredibly powerful.

And so that's not unique to West Africa, by the way, it seems to be a general primitive state that women exercise this incredible social, psychological power from behind the scenes. Wait, Bap, can I interject here as well? This is something in North Korea. In North Korea, everyone is in a village or an apartment, especially in the cities. cities. And there is a woman, usually an older woman. I think it's almost always an older woman. And it's her job to keep track of who's coming in and out of the building. So if you can't have an affair or anything like that, she's watching it. It's not a secret. So this is not just West Africa. This is also the case in North Korea and I'm sure in other countries. And it's basically

her role to be the enforcer. And she's obviously not a strong person. A woman in her 60s is not in in a physical position to do anything, but God help you if you cross her. Yes, I mean Camille Paglia, I think that's another thing for you. You love her, right? I love her too. She mentions this that in the Sicilian social sphere, at least the peasant level of it, which is what I mean by the longhouse, the grandmother rules everything. The Chinese grandmother also rules everything. A book I love to recommend, when I talk to Moldbag, we both love this writer, Hilaire du Berriere, he was a French spy, actually French-American, he learned Vietnamese, and he was a right-hand man of Bao Dai, the last Vietnamese emperor. It's hard to find this book anymore, it's called Background to Betrayal.

It's a good book for many reasons, but he explains how Vietnamese society works, and it's exactly the the same. Yes, it was very urban, but just like in the ruling Diệm family, which they were the, I guess, the proxy rulers of United States in the 50s and so on, but that family was ruled by his brother's wife and it followed a pattern where that's entirely how Vietnamese societies run. it's a clerk in thrall to his wife. It seems to be a universal pattern for humanity. I call it just default humanity. But I need to emphasize that it's not just the rule of women, it's also the rule of olds. And if I may say disgusting old people, gerontocracy, rule traditional societies and everywhere almost at the village level and suck the life out of

young people. And that's another big aspect of what means long house. So although anti-feminists were latched onto this and use it as a synonym for feminism, and many of them are actually religious traditionalists, I don't think they would actually like the full meaning of what I'm talking about because I'm describing a lot of traditional societies and I'm saying that the modern world isn't really modern per se, it's actually larping, it's role-playing, it's reverting to this default nasty condition of mankind, which fundamentally, why is it disgusting? It's because it privileges safety and mere life, the preservation of life at the expense of things that are exciting and great and free, you know? And when I wrote this book in 2018, sorry to keep talking, Mike,

if I may go. No, this is why you're here. But when I wrote this book in 2018, some people liked it because I expressed myself directly and with humor and so on, and they said, okay, Bap, this is very nice, but is it really true? And then what happened, people will say, now I planned it. No, I didn't plan it. The pandemic happened, which basically, I think, demonstrated the truth of what I'm saying. In the pandemic, in my view, was a mass sacrifice of the world's youth to the desires of disgusting old people who sacrificed the youth, and also to women, frankly, especially, you know, the middle-aged sterile woman who made the pandemic procedures her whole life. It gave meaning to her life. I saw it in action, you know.

I can't tell you how much joy it brings me to hear you with your accent say the phrase these middle-aged, middle-aged, sterile women. This reminds me of when I was at Jared Taylor's house interviewing him for The New Right and he was just baffled by some of the, you know, the alt-right at the time and he says to me and I have it on the audio I put on Vocaloo a while ago, he goes to me, the idea in this day and age that Hitlerism would be a model for America is simply fantastic. I go, you mean crazy, right? He goes, oh yes, yes, thank you for the clarification. But Hitlerism is simply fantastic. Yes. If I could sum up what you just said in one sentence, kill all boomers, yes? Well, yeah, I mean, you know, like the Japanese politicians annihilate everything that exists.

I believe in this, you know, and I mean, some of these things were informed by my early life, you know, I was born in the East block, I don't make a secret of that, and so I grew up for the first eight years or so of my life in what was technically a totalitarian society. However, I remember very clear I had a very happy childhood and around the year I was six years, seven years old, I was in this big city. Me and my friends were up to always mischief. We had the run of the city, we could do whatever we wanted, always pranks and so on. And even that I found somewhat stifling because there are these old people handing you in. But then I moved to the United States And it was very different atmosphere. It was in the suburb, and the kids told on each other.

It was a very regulated life, and it's gotten only more so over time. And I'm shocked sometimes to remember that kids today have nothing like the experience of freedom like I had. And this prison world just getting worse and worse. But I just found all due respect to the United States. I want to be a patriot to it. but I found it to be a kind of hemming in prison life. And that's part of why I wrote the book. And I think that resonated with many people. They had the same experience. It's just human nature. You're being held in a cage. Folks, traditional bedsheets can harbor more bacteria than a toilet seat, which can lead to acne, to allergies, to stuffy noses, and it is gross. Miracle-Maid offers a full line of self-cleaning, eco-friendly bedding such

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that maybe went awry is the narrative. But the 70s don't really have a story, right? And it's kind of interesting this whole, other than Watergate, people don't really know what to make of it. And one of my favorite movies is this film called Jesus's Son. And one of the things that movie speaks to, it's also a phenomenal book, is that in the 70s, it was possible to get like lost. You can't get lost anymore, right? Like you have your cell phone, you have social media. If someone vanishes, everyone would know pretty quickly, assuming that they have any kind of social network at all. But I remember when I was in high school in the 90s, we would be like, okay, let's meet at one o'clock at Astor Place by the cube. And you're there at one o'clock, you're waiting for your friend.

If they don't show up, you don't really have a recourse. Maybe you're calling their house. Maybe you're calling your other friend. But people who grew up with cell phones and the internet don't appreciate to what extent it was possible to just vanish as a human being. and people would ask about you like, oh, have you heard from Michael or whatever? And you haven't. And this was very much a thing. And I think in the 70s, America itself was lost. But to your point, it's just interesting to me how I always say that when jargon or slang reaches the mainstream, it degenerates completely and loses its very specific meaning. Vox Day coined the term midwit, which I popularized. And it very specific, the thing is when you have a general word, specific words are great, right?

because you already have the general word, idiot, moron. Okay, fine, we know what that is. Midwood specifically means someone who is of marginal intelligence, meaning by definition, they're smarter than average, but think that they're brilliant. They think reading Harry Potter or watching the Handmaid's Tale is some kind of amazing insights sociology, and that they're unique in having discovered this arcana, right? But now on social media, Midwood just means moron or jerk. And it's like, but we have words for moron or jerk. Like, why are you destroying this very specific word for a specific thing? And I bring it up because when my friend described the longhouse to me, see, it's already lost its meaning, as you were saying, he described it as this idea

that you live in this longhouse where it's run by women and that the soy boy types are enforcing what the women want, and it's just effectively a shorthand for subordination to female rule. And it's interesting to hear you spell out that that's not, that's kind of a degeneration of what you actually meant. Yes, it's, by the way, I'll give you an analogy even though I didn't have it in mind at all when I wrote about Longhouse or wrote my book, but it's similar in, do you know John Murray Cuddahy? Do you know this writer? He wrote book, The Ordeal of Civility, which is about the Marx, Freud and Levi Strauss. Levi Strauss, and he tried to explain how, let's say, marginal ethnic group, in this case, Ashkenazi Jews in Europe, and he's mainstream scholar, by the way,

he's not like crazy anti-Semite or whatever, but they were not the only ethnic group that, let's say, joined modernity late. There were quite a few others in Europe and there continue, of course, to be many others today all over the third world who, let's say, they join modernity late. He tried to explain how the thought of, let's say, Freud or Marx, which is often taken by traditionalists to be the worst of modernity or the hyper modernity, modernity taken to its worst extremes, But Kadehi tried to explain how it's actually a desire to preserve pre-modern attitudes within modern society. So to preserve the feeling of the shtetl, the feeling of communitarian togetherness of the Ashkenazi Jewish group within modern individualistic, let's say, wasp society.

They would not be the only ones, they are just, like say Marx and Freud would be just some of the most creative coopers to try to reintroduce that. There are other examples from other ethnic groups too and so on. I don't mean to be rude on your show and so on. You're not being rude. I was in Charlottesville. But it's the same kind of of analogy with the Longhouse, again, even though I didn't have Jean-Marie Currie in mind, but where I'm actually talking about this is a diversion to a pre-modern thing. I like modern progress. I like technological progress. I'm not against that. And this doesn't mean simply the rule of women. It's simply that actually, in many traditional, especially peasant level societies, women do have an inordinate social presence, you know?

You're really kind of triggering me in a positive way, because this whole TradCon idea of the wife being completely subordinate to the husband is so crazy to me. Not that I'm saying it's a good thing or a bad thing, I'm just saying it's completely historical. If you look at Macbeth. I mean, any of the... The Bible. There's the number of stories where the woman, maybe she's not the titular head of the household, but they have that joke about the husband's the head, but what woman's the neck? What's the head going to do without the neck? So this idea that basically she's there cowering from his fists, and yes, sir, that she's basically a house slave is crazy simply because it's not tradition. Maybe it's the tradition of the 1950s specifically,

and that's a blue-pilled vision of the family. But historically, the claim that women, even though maybe legally they couldn't vote or have property or whatever, were powerless and subordinate. I mean, we don't have to guess because we have thousands of years of literature describing how people behaved, and look at Zeus, god of gods. He's running in fear from Hera, because he's scared of her, because he's having these affairs, and God help him if he finds out, if she finds out. Yes. The Zeus-Hera thing is in Homer and others. It's very nice, like, family domestic comedy. It's kind of harmless and fun-loving, yes. I agree with you, though, on exactly what you're saying. It's the trad-con, for audience who doesn't know, the social conservatives, the traditional

conservatives to pretend that the wife in traditional society is totally subservient to husband is very false. You're right. I want to, since we're on this show and people know about the feminist or the gynocracy element of idea of longhouse, I just want to emphasize these other parts that it's It's also disgusting old people. It's also, in general, risk-averse, neutered males and so on. And when... Like Mitch McConnell. Yes, like Mitch McConnell. I would assume that in the West today, most politicians are ruled by their wives, actually. I think that's true. And it doesn't matter. In many cases, if you can convince one of these men in private, they will agree with you and then in public they will still do the same thing because they're ashamed or afraid of what

their wife will think if they do something else. But that aside, I do think that the slum, a universal, let's say, Haiti or the outskirts of Rio de Janeiro, favelas or such, is very quickly what the entire world is moving to and that's really the long house and it's being done sometimes under traditionalist or religionist ideals, you know, it's not just under modern socialism or so and I want to maybe emphasize that in talking to you now that I see this huge danger of whatever the present state of technology is, it's being used by humanity that has proliferated and under the present conditions of democracy, exercises its power, its political, cultural power over the entire world and reverting mankind back to what would be preservation of

of me at life, which for anyone who has higher aspirations, experiences that as a stifling prison. And it's this experience partly, I think, why my book resonated with many people. They remember their time in high school and at other places. And it's not as, let's say, modern social conservatives or traditionalist religious conservatives say that the problem is lack of community and degeneracy. They love this word, degeneracy, that they keep repeating. In high school, for example, if you are a young, intelligent man, especially if you're a white 16, 17-year-old, but not just white, actually, others too, but they fixate on white for a number of reasons we can discuss if you want. But if you are that, and in general for anyone, there's a lack of any opportunity for great action.

It's a world entirely geared to brown-noses, teachers' pets, people who are willing to serve the olds, disgusting olds, that would, you know, middle-aged hags and so forth, you know? This makes me, you know, I'm going to give you a big compliment because when I first came upon your feed, this is when dark enlightenment was the term. So this has been a minute now. And on your Twitter bio, it says like, was it burn down all the cities, raise the cities? And I had lived in New York all my life to that point. I was like, eye rolling. I'm like, yeah, whatever. And I was wrong and you were right because Austin is still a city. It's obviously, but seeing what has been done to cities systemically over the last five years,

seeing that this has been done intentionally, and seeing how much malevolence and depravity emanates from cities, I have very heavily come around to your point of view. And the thing is, which increasing numbers of people understanding, this is all by design. None of this is by accident. It is easily avoidable. There is literally no reason for someone like, what was that guy's name, Jordan Neely on the subway in New York, who was arrested 30 times, one of which was for punching an old lady in the face for literally no reason, not even robbing her, breaking her orbital socket. Another time, he's grabbing a four or five-year-old kid, I think it was a girl, on the street trying to kidnap her. In any society with any semblance of decency,

you do either of those things and you're done. I can even wrap my head around burglary if you're poor or you're a drug addict, right? Or some kind of street violence, gang violence. I can run my head around all those things. If you're punching old people in the face and causing them severe bodily harm, it's a wrap. Even primitive societies understand this. So when you have a society that's ostensibly enlightened and is allowing this to happen and it's kind of shrugging their shoulders, well, what are we supposed to do? It's like, you know exactly what you're doing and you want this to get worse because it's serving your nefarious purposes. Yes, you are talking not just about the pandemic, but the spread of crime and homelessness and so forth.

Yes, I've seen it happen in cities all over the world. I've been living in Buenos Aires, in Rio de Janeiro off and on for more than 15 years. And it's always been a little bit like that there, but it gets worse and worse. And as everyone can see from the example of Bukele in El Salvador, it's an easily solvable problem. problem. These are things leftist city councils. Look, I actually don't agree that it's some kind of cynical Machiavellian plot. It might also be that I don't know. But it's certainly just leftist city councils under the ideology of human rights refusing to just enforce minimal orders for you know, yeah. Well, the reason I'm saying it's sinister is because they do target people who engage in self-defense.

Yes, no, it's not like if it would it would make more sense to me if they're just like screw it, you know Like the the myth of the Wild West everyone could do where they want. Yes killing on the street Well, I'm well too bad for human rights. They're not they're going after Kyle Rittenhouse and having show trials of Daniel Perry While they're completely shrugging the shoulders about systemic criminals. So they are comfortable wielding their power when it serves their purposes. And that's what tells me that it's not stupidity, that it's by design. Yes, I think there is something like that by design. I take the city of Rio de Janeiro again. It's always been dangerous and crime and so on. But in the nice neighborhoods, the local youths used to beat up people who came in who caused trouble.

They practiced martial arts and so forth. And they can no longer do that because these other ones, the criminals can have guns now. And if you are law abiding citizen caught with a gun, you go to jail, but if the other guy gets caught with a gun, yeah, yeah. So unfortunately, this devolution of cities happening all over the world. But to me, even though the pandemic is supposedly over now, it was a very revealing moment And it destroyed, I think, many cities. And left precisely the kind of people you're talking about to do whatever they wanted. It was selectively enforced also, the lockdowns and so on. Hey, folks, I want to talk to you about Bone Charge. They're a holistic wellness brand with a huge range of evidence-based products to optimize your life in every way.

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The level of rage I feel as a former lifelong New Yorker because in 2008 there's a banking collapse, right? We gotta bail out all the banks, we gotta bid all the banks. Fine, let's assume for the sake of argument was necessary to save the economy. I understand that fine. The pandemic hits these family-run stores that have been around for centuries, a century sometimes, who were the bedrock of neighborhoods, who were institutions in different areas, who were the embodiment of the so-called American dream, where someone came over from Sicily, they have a meat store now in Queens. That meat store has been there since 1930, passed down from generation to No one saved these institutions. So to me, the level of evil that you're going to bail out like Lehman Brothers or these

other places, but these one by one, these amazing institutions that brought character and vibrancy and made these places special, were allowed to be destroyed with no remorse, is to me just pure malevolence. Yes, I think so. I mean, it's done. I don't know if you know this, Hakan. By the way, Mike, you used to interact with old Frog Twitter poster Stud. Oh, is he still around? Unfortunately, he's not. I wish I could find him. I hope he's still alive. Stud Carmichael. Stud Carmichael, exactly. But all of us in Frog Twitter, it's a very small group, but we got much media attention even before Trump. But Stud was in that and we all remember your interactions with him. So people don't know because this is a deep cut. So Stud Carmichael was a bodybuilder who was on Twitter.

He asked me to shout him out on Rogan. And I said, dude, like, like, I need to know who you are because I don't want to be on Rogan shouting you out. And then it turns out you're like Klansman and like because this is Rogan, like this is when cancer culture was a thing. And then he was like, so I didn't shout him out, although I mentioned the shout-out obliquely, and I think a lot of people were disappointed, but that was the situation there, people don't know. Wait, he told you he was a Klansman, he was not a Klansman, he was a- No, no, no, no, no, I said to him, dude, before I shout you out, I need to know who you are, because I was scared, I'm like, oh, this guy Stud Carmichael's great, and then like mask comes off,

like Media Matters looks him up, and it turns out he's a Klansman, and my whole career is ruined, Did you say that name? Yes, yes, yes. No, he was a humorist. We all are in that small group. None of us are plantsmen. But he was also a genuine, almost professional bodybuilder, amazing physique, but amazing also humor. Anyway, yes, the problem with the cities that you're mentioning, the deliberate destruction of these cities, you see this almost all over the world. I guess you can say it's deliberate. Whatever it may be, I don't know if it can be solved in any of the... Not in the near future. Well, the things that poster left and right are saying about this is... But it's okay. Let's not get into politics unless you want to. But I mean, let me ask you your thoughts on a tweet of mine.

And I think you're obviously going to agree, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Because in the same way that World War I and the totalitarian state that Woodrow Wilson, because of the Great War, was in a position to impose on America, that led the way for the New Deal. Because it's like, we just did this. There was an emergency there. The Great Depression is an even bigger emergency. And frankly, it is a bigger problem, the Great Depression, the Great War. Let them fuck off in Europe. But here, it's one out of four people's out of work, and the people want to work. So that is, to me, even as an anarchist, even is more justifiable, but I tweeted out that the lockdowns have given some very evil people some very useful information

about the limits of Americans, not just American, but American and what people will put up with before they start to turn. And I think that's indisputable. Yes, it's all over, Michael. You know, I think Friedrich Hayek said people who didn't live before 1914 don't really know what liberty means. I mean, the leftist image of the past as this very authoritarian place, the opposite of the truth, and probably the Middle Ages was far freer than anything that came after 1800. If people are interested in this argument, there's a great libertarian quasi, I wouldn't call him anarchist, but libertarian philosopher Bertrand de Jouvenel, a follower of Tocqueville who makes this argument in his book on power about how, I mean, Tocqueville

just casually refers to it too as the middle ages was just an era of freedom, you know. And Hoppe talks about this at length as well. Yes, Hans-Hermann Hoppe. Yes, he talks this. I think it's true. And what you're saying, I'm very worried that they will do this now with climate bullshit and climate lockdowns, which certainly parts of the so-called elite are already planning. And the reason I say it's all over is because I was astounded to see peoples all over the world submit to this. Wait, wait, hey, Bap, maybe they're just fans of yours. You keep telling people they must submit and look, they did. Yeah, exactly. Bill Gates is the real Nietzschean. I know this stupid argument. But, you know, like, it's people who you would not expect to submit also. That was a bit shocking.

So I have a friend who's in Peru. He's kind of a weird, esoteric, Hitlerist hippie. I mean, it's harmless. He believes in UFOs and this. And he decided to go to the jungles of Peru to do archaeological freelance research. So there are actually many unexplored ruins in certain parts of Peru. And so he lived a kind of Indiana Jones lifestyle, and he gave me news from Jungle Peru, Chachapoyas and that region in the jungle of mountain, Amazon jungle of Peru. And then the pandemic came, the lockdowns, and from the popular stereotypes, should think, oh, people like in Peru wouldn't mind. They're unruly third-world people. They're not going to follow directions.

Well, those kind of countries had some of the worst lockdowns because people were convinced that the virus travels two miles like a missile, a heat-seeking missile finds you. They lived in absolute terror. Argentina, the same. That's one of the worst things that I've seen. Buenos Aires had one of the most amazing varied nightlife anywhere, uncontrolled by police, multiple levels. It never ended and then all of a sudden it was all wiped out because the people all submitted to this. Meanwhile, the Icelanders who you think are uptight Nordics, who are rule following, I actually spent the beginning months of the pandemic in Iceland. I went there in May 2020, and nobody was following any of the directions. Nobody was wearing masks.

I was supposed to be on the so-called quarantine for two weeks, but nobody checked on me. I walked in the mountains. Scandinavia isn't a monolith. Iceland has been ruled by the right-of-center Interpendants Party, I think, forever. It was the first time that the Social Democrats came in, in, I think it was either right before or as a result of them going bankrupt. So people have this idea of Scandinavia as being this kind of hardcore social democrat thing. In some cases, that's true. But in some cases, they're also the ones to liberalize because they saw the consequences of this. So this Bernie Sanders mythologizing of Sweden and Norway and Iceland, it's not analogous to reality. Yes actually Sweden is famous so-called socialist paradise in the maybe 60s and 70s

but by the late 90s they had reformed and got rid of those and Iceland by the way should be credited since we're talking about the pandemic it should be credited for ending the pandemic restrictions they are the first ones who for a long time were saying we don't believe that science doesn't back up the practice of lockdowns or vaccine mandates and we're going to end this and we're ending this and you know it's a small country but no one can accuse it of being a fascist or retrograde or whatever and so they really then Denmark and the Scandinavians really single-handed I think ended the stupid lockdowns much earlier than otherwise. By the way since you're an anarchist do you like the Icelandic Free State model and so on with the Vikings? Basically no state at all, you know?

Yeah, there's a great book about this called Viking Age Iceland. So the thing... Okay, you're triggering all my buttons. So one of the things you always get as an anarchist is like, give me an example of when anarchism has worked. And if you point to something they've never heard of, and of course, the only thing they've heard of is on their television, it's never worked on their television, therefore it's never worked in real life, or on their screens at least. And Viking Age Iceland was an example of this, but then very fairly, they'll say, well, this was like a tiny homogenous island nation, you know, like 600 years ago. So I think they're correct that it's not a good analogous example for contemporary times of how anarchism would work. Yes. I mean, do you think it would work now?

I don't know. I don't mean to put you on the spot. You're not putting me on the spot. So we could have this long conversation at any point, but I do think it would work. It would certainly work because you have things like Bitcoin. The whole concept of anarchism, as I would envision it, is having citizenship not based on geography. So an example of it is if I go to London as an American citizen, as an American diplomat, I'm still under American laws to some extent and there has to be some interaction. An example of anarchism or how it would work is what happens when a Canadian kills an American in Mexico? I don't know, you don't know, but we do know that there's some system in place. So instead of it having,

you know, be just based on geography, this is kind of landlines technology in a post cell phone world. So your security should travel with you as opposed to just you happen to be between two rivers. So you're under the auspices of some different, you know, Yes. I know such theories and I'm sympathetic to what you and Mollbug and other, let's say, techno-libertarians and anarcho-libertarians say, but I think nobody would listen to your advice or mine. I agree. I'm not a Democrat. Yes, everything must be annihilated when I say that I hope to reach a small group of people who love freedom and convince them maybe that they should not sacrifice their lives for these, again, what you call them, spooks, yes, these kinds of group identities and

defunct states and they should form instead mafias, Michael, they should form mafias. Well, Sterner calls them coalitions of egoists, I believe. Sometime in the early 80s, Ario Speedwagon's airplane made an unannounced, middle of the night landing. This is my friend Kyle MacLachlan, the star of Twin Peaks. And he's telling me about how he discovered a real life Twin Peaks in rural North Carolina, not far from where he filmed Blue Velvet. What was on the plane was copious amounts of drugs coming in from South America. Supposedly Pablo Escobar went looking for other spots, quiet, out of the way places to bring in his cocaine. My name is Joshua Davis I'm an investigative reporter. Kyle and I talk all the time about the strange things we come across,

but nothing was quite as strange as what we found in Varnum Town, North Carolina. There's crooked cops, brother against brother. Everyone's got a story to tell, but does the truth even exist? Welcome to Varnum Town. Varnum Town is available wherever you listen to podcasts. Let's get back to the show. But the point is, I'm not in favor of, people are always like, you're never going to convince the majority. It's not about having a majority, it's about having an alternative. All it takes is Elon Musk buying Twitter. If he had had Twitter and ran it like he's running it now, when the lockdowns and the quarantines were happening, you can't deny, or anyone can't deny, that it would have played out very, very differently.

So even if it's a small, like even in Vermont, you know, becomes anarchist, stuff like that, you don't need, the people are like, well, how are you, there are countries right now that don't have a military, right? So if they're like, oh, well, the US is protecting it, fine. If you have a little anarchist area and the US is protecting it, I don't care. I'm fine with that. And I think it's going to be, like you said, there's going to be, I think more and more of a division between people who think like this and see themselves, their lives as something worth living, as people who are committed to thriving in, and everyone else, H.L. Mencken has said, and I'm 100% confident you'll agree, the average man does not want to be free, he merely wants to be safe.

And once you understand this, that people are desperate to get back, like when your dog goes to his little crate at night, he wants to be in that crate. And one of the big lies we're taught in our Prussian-based schooling system, here in the at least, is that deep down everyone is basically the same. This is completely crazy, has no relation to reality. And I mean, people basically want to be... I don't even think everyone here wants to be happy on that fundamental level. So once you disify yourself of that notion, you stop wasting your breath trying to persuade everyone you meet, especially your family, and start realizing, all right, we're in a position now where, in my view, thanks to technology,

you can really make an impact and make things happen. So instead of trying to persuade everyone to vote Republican, you can be an exemplar and live your life to the fullest. Yes, it's true. You mentioned Twitter. I think Elon has good intentions and I think it would have been a good thing if he had owned Twitter during the lockdowns, as you say. But I do think that what's going on with internet broadly since the early 2000s is that after World War II, there was a very controlled media environment in the United States and Europe. I'm of course in the East Bloc too, but completely controlled media environment, a few things. things. And then the internet came and that kind of got broken. It got broken in a very good way. It got broken without authorities being aware of it.

And so ideas started to spread and picked up especially in the late 2000s and early 2010s. Can I interrupt you and you can correct me a little bit? I would put it a little earlier because we had something in the States called the Fairness Doctrine, right? And the Fairness Doctrine was like if you have a radio show, if you have liberals, you have to have conservatives, something like that. So basically what you'd have is you have some shit lib, and then you have William F. Buckley. So there's your range of allowable opinion. When the Fairness Doctrine was repealed, Carter or Reagan, I don't remember exactly when it was implemented, you could say whatever you want. Rush Limbaugh comes along. He's at that point hard right. He's clowning the regime.

He's in many ways clowning the Republican Party. That led the way to the internet where it's like, wait a minute, why are we having this Overton window? Jimmy Dore was on my show and he had this great joke. He goes, if you watch CNN, he's not even a joke, I'm sorry, he had this great comment. He goes, if you watch the CNN, the rage of opinion is, should we bomb the hell out of Syria or bomb the fucking hell out of Syria? There's the rage of opinion. So now, and I'd love to hear you pick up where you left off, with the internet, it's completely Yes, and I think Rush Limbaugh, whatever, you know, some people say they disagree with him. He's an amazing performer and he's a very shrewd man. And I like very much Michael Savage as a performer from the 1990s. Can I tell you something? Yes.

Someone was tweeting at me for four years, a boomer, four years, saying, are you ever going to apologize for making fun of Rush Limbaugh when he was dying of cancer? cancer. I don't remember doing that. I would do it because it's funny, even though I like Rush a lot. It's just like, okay, let's go for the the shock humor. And then someone pointed out to him, he was thinking of not Michael Ballas, but Michael Savage. So for four years, this boomer was tweeting at me to apologize. And then he's like, you're right. I'm so sorry. I feel so stupid. I don't even care, you know, Michael, about these people's opinions. Michael Savage is which is just an amazing radio performer, and so is Phil Hendry. And the repeal of the fairness doctrine, as you say, had a lot to do with it.

Michael Savage, by the way, for people who don't know, he's been talking about illegal immigration since the early 1990s. And Trump went on his show quite a few times before running. I think he, more than Ann Coulter, is, if you want to... I think Trump is his own man. But if you want to praise any one media figure for promoting Trump and Trumpist ideas, it's Michael Savage. But I think the internet spread a lot more heterodox ideas in 2010s and so forth. Bap, can you imagine Moldbug trying to do a piece on CNN or Fox, like trying to talk in sound bites? My god. Yes, I mean, but this is what I'm getting to, Michael. This is the problem, though, that we got a lot of media attention, especially with Trump, but even slightly before. So I would

say the heyday of internet freedom thought was 2014, 15 or so, right before Trump. And then because of the media attention on us, and you can call us hard right, far right, whatever, but But the things that were going on on the internet were very different from the previous models of whatever you want to call right wing before, which are completely powerless, the David Duke thing. That's complete hokey bullshit. And then because of this media attention, we got flooded, flooded with reasons. And now we're absolutely flooded with reasons. This is what I've been trying to, sorry for a long time. Can you call your next book that? Flooded with, sure. Because, I mean, I don't want to make it a polemic, but this is what's happening to online now. And it's not Elon Musk's fault.

He's probably unaware of it. But what you are seeing right now is so-called dissident thought and right-wing thought on Twitter is not what was around on 2015. And if it had been, we wouldn't have gotten anywhere. This is complete crap that's going on now. Can I interject? I've been having this conversation with many people and I'm glad you said this independently. Cause I'm like, I feel like discourse has gotten much stupider, right? And I'm like, is it me? And I was on Tim cast, Tim pool show on April 1st and someone calls in and I am Jewish and they go, Hey Michael Christ is King. And I think they thought I would like, recoil like a vampire, as if I don't have many born-again Christian friends, as if I have some kind of secret disdain for Christianity.

And also that it's so secret that as soon as I hear these three words, instead of fourteen words, I'm going to turn into a puddle. And it's just like the lack of empathy in the sense of understanding other's perspective, thinking that this phrase is going to cause me distress, it's just like, this is just so dumb. Well, let's assume that the guy was just a patsy who said that, But I suspect that the origin of that meme is in Haifa, Israel, Michael. And in Texas with the Wilkes brothers who are insane, like Jews for Jesus types. And the whole thing has been crapped on by religion. the so-called... I will not be popular with much of the right for saying this. And it's not just so-called... By the way, I'm honest when I tell you these are my sincere things.

I don't think they are actually Christian. I actually do think it comes out of Haifa Israel, and I can explain that to you why I think that, if you want. Please. But it's not just them, it's Orthodox Jews, it's Muslims, it's the entry of religion into the so-called right recently has completely split up the whole space. Well, it's becoming useless, I mean, there are still good posters, you are there, frog Twitter, whatever is left of it, some of it is there. But overall, Elon Twitter has become completely infested by morons. And so I don't have very optimistic view of what's going to happen now in 2024 because of it. I have to ask, what's your deadlift PR? No, I don't do deadlifts. I follow a different

path. I don't do deadlifts. Now you can attack me for that. I don't attack any of my guests But I should say to you, I don't talk about lifting at all in my book. Oh, I'm not saying you do. And I don't talk about so-called masculinity in my book. This is just people who don't read me or don't know what I said there. I hope it's not even on Wikipedia, but my book isn't even about that. It's, again, about this experience of the island prison and the presentation of a different way of life that was present in aristocratic warrior society, not only in Europe, although it was primarily present in Europe since, let's say, the Bronze Age, but it's not just in Europe. It's also on the steppe. It's in various other parts of the world.

among the Tutsis. It's the aristocratic spirit which I try to present not in a historical way, but in what that would look like transferred today in today's experience. How do you say that you're not self-help in the sense that if you tell people just the two sentences, you live in a prison that you don't realize and you don't have to, I think that's as self-help as it gets. Yes, in some sense. But look, I knew a girl once. She was this kind of annoying little girl, but she put her spider's web around me, and I was with her for a while. It was terrible. But she'd say things like, oh, I love giving advice to people. So I would tell her, there's a line from an ancient philosopher, Diogenes Lertius, who's a biographer of philosophers, has this line. I forget.

I think it's Antistides or someone like that. I forget exactly. It's either him or Aristippus, but it's a line. He just asked, what is the easiest thing in the world? He answered, to give advice. And I told her this and she's like, oh, yeah, yeah, sure. That's like she thought that was a good thing. No, it's the easiest thing in the world because it's useless, right? you can't give somebody advice unless you know them. You know their abilities, their desires, their background. Can I tell you something? Yes. I was at a dinner with Elon recently and I was talking to someone I knew and she says, oh just be quiet and don't start to cause trouble and I'm like, I don't need your advice. You're not in a position to give me advice and this is is the stupidest advice, you know what I mean?

And every room that you're in, every single person there would have an opinion and you need some criteria for determining who to listen to and who not. And the person to listen to is the one probably you're gonna have to pull teeth to get them to give you advice because they know their advice is valuable. Yes, exactly. It's one of the most annoying things. I know an East Bloc country, actually the one I'm from, you know, I don't want to say, but if you go there, you talk about gym, right? if you go there to a gym in that capital city, you will get unsolicited advice. I've never seen this in any other country. No, no, you're wrong. I'm from a Soviet Union, Ukraine specifically. One of the reasons I can't be around them, even the fucking cab driver. Oh, you should learn to speak Ukrainian.

Oh, you should do this. Bitch, you're running, you're driving a cab, who asked you? Yes, I know this attitude very well. It's extremely annoying. Yes, it's part of why I hate the idea of giving self-help. But yeah, if you mean in the general sense, sure, in the general sense, yes, I wanted to show people that there was a different path in life as such. I mean, even physiologically in life. And I can get into that if you want. But default humanity is the slum, But there is another path in history, which is the small brotherhood of warriors. And that's only existed in very few places. Japan, parts of Europe, very small part of Africa, parts of the Americas, in which not young men as such, but young warriors managed to take helm control of their society. And that's the only reason humans

have evolved beyond a grass-hot and such. Ayn Rand has in The Fountainhead this great speech at the end by Howard Rourke. And it opens by saying, thousands of years ago, someone discovered how to make fire. He was probably burned at the stake that he taught his brothers how to light, but he still moved humanity forward. So that is exactly the kind of thing, I think, that you're talking about. And I thought also what I really appreciate about your message as the author of The White Pill is that it's very easy to look at the long house, to look at the prison walls and be like, well, it's a wrap. Even if it's a wrap broadly speaking for the West, that I don't think it is, that does not mean at all that it's a wrap for you as an individual, especially as a young person.

You have the capacity to do greatness on your own terms. And I think more people need to hear that message because it's so easy to just shrug your shoulders and be like, well, we're not gonna win because the majority doesn't agree with you. The majority never has and never will. And that's irrelevant. Well, yes, a favela world of greater disorder actually could present some greater opportunities. But it's again, we were talking about the influx of the people on Twitter and in the dissident so-called circles in general. And yes, it's these people who try to move focus away from the fact that the best men end up being hemmed in, living in a straitjacket in a kind of prison. And they say, no, the problem is alienation, atomization, the fact that you don't have community

or this word that you might see if you go online, degeneracy, degeneracy, degeneracy. It means racism. It means I don't like it. Yes, there are only objections really to the left is that they don't have the right kind of speech codes and such. It's this tedious thing and at its worst it will trap men who love honor or who want some kind of Amish lifestyle. You may have seen this online. You need to abandon the cities and live in a hovel growing mushrooms in Montana or so forth, but anyway, yes. Bap, running out of time, what has been your favorite part of this interview? Well, I liked when we talked about reminiscences of the East Block. If you want, we can keep going on that, yeah. You are welcome. streaming all month long during Pluto TV's April Ghouls.

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